# Luhmann-sequences with denote
**URL:** https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901
**Category:** Emacs
**Created:** [August 2, 2024, 10:25am UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901 "2024-08-02T10:25:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2024, 10:25am UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/1 "2024-08-02T10:25:20Z")
I am using [Denote](https://protesilaos.com/emacs/denote) to setup Luhmann-style zettelkasten notes. However, I am having second-thoughts on how I should employ Denote’s signature field for this purpose.
In my current, early stages, of setup, I have files named as
```auto
20240726T141747==0--starting-t[REDACTED]
20240726T142342==0a--denote-dir[REDACTED]
20240801T162301==0b--using-ba[REDACTED]
```
So, I am employing the Luhmann-sequences as
```auto
0a12b
31ac2
```
etc. Now, how should I craft the signature field in order to not be confused about the sequence of numbers? In the above example, `0a12b` can be interpreted as
```auto
0
0a
0a1
0a12
0a12b
```
OR,
```auto
0
0a
0a12
0a12b
```
So, there is ambiguity with the numbers greater than number 9. What’s a good way to resolve this ambiguity? I tried inputting a dot in between the Luhmann-sequences, like `0.a.1.2.b`, but denote removes the dot signs in between the alpha-numeric characters and I am left with `0a12b` again. Am I to insert an equal sign in between these alphanumerics, like so: `0=a=1=2=b` ? Doesn’t that result in a signature field that gets horizontally spacious on the computer screen? Any better ideas on this?
---
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2024, 10:28am UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/2 "2024-08-02T10:28:42Z")
From #General to #Emacs
---
### Author:  [@mirkoh](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/mirkoh)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/3 "2024-08-03T19:07:13Z")
There is no ambiguity, note a1 is a completely different note from note a12. Different numbers and letter combinations describe different notes.
I would recommend reading publications of Johannes F. K. Schmidt (the 2016 one is the best) or “Communicating with Slip Boxes” by Niklas Luhmann for clarification on the matter.
I’m developing a minor mode based on denote that helps with the creation of folgezettel notes (notes with the Luhmann id).
> **[GitHub - MirkoHernandez/denote-folgezettel: Emacs package to create and navigate denote notes...](https://github.com/MirkoHernandez/denote-folgezettel)**
>
> Emacs package to create and navigate denote notes with folgezettel numbering in the signature.
---
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2024, 9:08am UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/4 "2024-08-04T09:08:32Z")
> [@mirkoh](#):
>
> There is no ambiguity, note a1 is a completely different note from note a12.
That’s not self evident to a newcomer.
As far as I understand, Note sequencing here is
a
a1
or
a
a12
In a sense, at a first glance, it is not obvious if a12 is the 12th note after the note a, OR, the second note after the note a1.
I will check out the literature names you dropped. Although, I would appreciate details on the name of
> [@mirkoh](#):
>
> reading publications of Johannes F. K. Schmidt (the 2016 one is the best)
---
### Author:  [@mirkoh](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/mirkoh)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/5 "2024-08-04T18:08:04Z")
Sorry, I should have specified the sources. If you read about how the management of paper cards works the software equivalent is easy to understand.
The 2018 one is just a summary.
- Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: Thinking Tool, Communication Partner, Publication Machine 2016
[[PDF] Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: Thinking Tool, Communication Partner, Publication Machine | Semantic Scholar](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Niklas-Luhmann%E2%80%99s-Card-Index%3A-Thinking-Tool%2C-Machine-Schmidt/7755fed320c4bb1e3517a18abf0b7791e35375bb)
- Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: The Fabrication of Serendipity 2018
[https://sociologica.unibo.it/article/view/8350/8270](https://sociologica.unibo.it/article/view/8350/8270)
---
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2024, 12:34pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/6 "2024-08-05T12:34:19Z")
I read both the pdf files you linked. Here’s my specific question, re-worded:
In the following sequence:
```auto
3 General decision theory
31 Concept of action
32 Models of decision-making
33 Types of decision-making model designs
331 Utilitarian models
332 Optimizing model
333 Satisfying model (theory of acceptable decisions)
34 Simplification of decision-making
341 Anticipatory simplification
3411 Ideology
3412 Authority (organization)
3413 Rules
3414 Legal system
3415 Unplanned structures in the field of decision-making
342 Techniques of decision-making
35 Organization of decision-making
```
in the following specific portion:
```auto
33 Types of decision-making model designs
331 Utilitarian models
332 Optimizing model
333 Satisfying model (theory of acceptable decisions)
34 Simplification of decision-making
```
What happens (if/when) the notes under `33 Types of decision-making model designs` reach 338, 339, and what if there is ONE MORE “type of decision making model design” item that he wants to enter?
What does he do? Does he write 3310? Now, doesn’t that cause **an ambiguity** as to whether if this numbering comes after 339, **OR,** if this numbering is one between 331 and 332?
---
### Author:  [@snamellit](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/snamellit)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/7 "2024-08-05T12:56:25Z")
Prot is adding first class support for Luhmann sequences in his upcoming 3.1.0 release of denote : [Emacs: sort Luhmann-style signatures with ‘denote-sort-dired’ | Protesilaos Stavrou](https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2024-08-01-emacs-denote-luhmann-signature-sort/) .
---
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/8 "2024-08-05T12:57:49Z")
I am aware of it, but my OP is about a different, more specific question.
---
### Author:  [@mirkoh](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/mirkoh)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/9 "2024-08-05T20:52:38Z")
My understanding is that notes with only numeric ids represent top level entry points and there might be no implicit relationship between them. Notes 33, 34, and 331 can represent completely different ideas.
A note that is inserted after one of the top level notes has an implicit relationship to the “parent” note. Note 2a must be somehow related to note 2 (maybe a hierarchy, maybe not).
If I think the categories are important as top level notes. Just keep incrementing the number 38 and 39 have the same kind of relation as 39 and 40. Notes might get scattered this way but they end up reflecting the nature and order of your research.
```auto
33 Types of decision-making model designs
34 Utilitarian models
...
39 Optimizing model
... [Other ideas not related at all to models]
43 Satisfying model
```
Otherwise I would write the notes in your example using letters and use note 33 as a category.
```auto
33 Types of decision-making model designs
33a Utilitarian models
33b Optimizing models
etc
```
---
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2024, 9:31am UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/10 "2024-08-06T09:31:56Z")
> [@mirkoh](#):
>
> Otherwise I would write the notes in your example using letters and use note 33 as a category.
>
> ```auto
> 33 Types of decision-making model designs
> 33a Utilitarian models
> 33b Optimizing models
> etc
>
> ```
Understood. But isn’t it the case that, then, you will be limited to 29 letters? What if you want to add a one more subsequent entry after 33z? What will happen then?
---
### Author:  [@mirkoh](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/mirkoh)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/11 "2024-08-07T22:02:37Z")
I’ve reread the 2016 PDF ( sorry, my previous answer was from what I could remember about it). The part describing the subsections is very confusing and indeed there is ambiguity in how to number the subsections.
At the time when I read it I did not realize it; I thought that the main areas and subsections were a consequence of the vast readings and interests of Niklas Luhmann, something not applicable for most people trying to implement a zettelkasten, I focused only on the numbering scheme and the filling technique. I realize now that the subsections are important.
> What if you want to add a one more subsequent entry after 33z? What will happen then?
There are example notes with multiple contiguous letter so it is implied that you can append an “a” after the “z” and continue using letters.
---
### Author:  [@shinkansen](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/shinkansen)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2024, 10:57am UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/12 "2024-08-08T10:57:12Z")
> [@mirkoh](#):
>
> There are example notes with multiple contiguous letter so it is implied that you can append an “a” after the “z” and continue using letters.
Understood.
Is this also how your denote-zettelkasten behaves?
---
### Author:  [@mirkoh](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/mirkoh)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/13 "2024-08-08T17:48:02Z")
Yes, I think that I will include the separator suggested in Prot’s post for denote 3.1.0 sorting features, for now it uses just numbers and letters.
---
### Author:  [@paulwicking](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/paulwicking)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/14 "2024-08-27T18:14:58Z")
Are you referring to [this paper](https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Niklas-Luhmann%E2%80%99s-Card-Index%3A-Thinking-Tool%2C-Machine-Schmidt/7755fed320c4bb1e3517a18abf0b7791e35375bb)?
> Schmidt, J.F. (2016). Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: Thinking Tool, Communication Partner, Publication Machine.
---
### Author:  [@mirkoh](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/u/mirkoh)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://forum.systemcrafters.net/t/luhmann-sequences-with-denote/901/15 "2024-08-27T19:52:24Z")
Yes, the 2018 document is a summary (same information as far as I can tell).